Interview: Drew Ackerman discusses dreams for “Sleep with Me”
Last updated on June 25th, 2019
Since 2013 Drew “Scooter” Ackerman has been putting listeners to sleep (on purpose) with the podcast Sleep with Me, a thrice-weekly series that lulls the listener to sleep with a combination of light comedy, intentionally tangent-prone storytelling, and Ackerman’s trademark voice. Born out of Ackerman’s own childhood listening to late-night comedy radio to ease his insomnia, Sleep with Me is fast approaching 800 episodes of helping listeners fall asleep to his voice recounting everything from the plot of episodes of Game of Thrones (appropriately subtitled Game of Drones) to an innocuous trip to Trader Joe’s.
Related reading: 10 relaxation and sleep podcasts
Ackerman brought the podcast to PodX the first weekend of Nashville with a fifty minute tale of him deciding to walk in the footsteps of Food Network hosts like Guy Fieri and take a road trip pilgrimage to a legendary restaurant somewhere deep in a tangle of country backroads. After rousing the audience members who’d drifted off with the world’s calmest John Denver group sing-along, I caught up with Scooter to talk about his own relationship with sleep, how Patreon has changed podcasting for him, and the future of Game of Drones now that GoT has come to a close.
Gavin Gaddis: I wanted to open up with this: When Christine Hutchinson interviewed you for Psyched you mentioned feeling like, as the creator of Sleep With Me, you were living in two worlds; one foot in a world without hope and one with hope for the sake of the show. How has that perspective evolved since that interview?
Drew Ackerman: That’s a good question. I think like, it’s still a struggle for me. Like, with anybody that struggles with depression or negative thinking. Or being human. The podcast is kind of taught me that all this, at least for me is a slow journey. Whether it’s recovering from something or learning to navigate life in a new way. And I mean, I think I’m slightly more optimistic. In working at the show I keep getting exposed to people’s stories and listen to the podcast, like how the outside world is impacted them or their physical hells or whatever. And knowing that the podcast can help them, it does help me be more optimistic.
[But,] I think there’s still a part of me that’s also like, uncomfortable with that. Like as far as, that I want to deny the podcast is helping people or because it’s scary to me. I dunno. The listeners never make me feel like I’m obligated to them, they always just share their story and then they say, “oh, this is how the podcast impacted me.”
But I think sometimes they just overthink it. I think maybe it’s just, like, too vulnerable for me to be like, I’m glad the podcast helps people and I can relate to a lot of what they’ve been through. But sometimes it’s scary to even say that.
Gavin Gaddis: How has your relationship with sleep changed since you started the show? As someone with sleep apnea I’ve recently gotten a CPAP machine and find myself getting, in a way, performance anxiety about sleeping (which, actually, lead me to listen to Sleep With Me for the first time). You’ve said you can’t listen to your own show because it’s your voice. What do you listen to, if anything?
Drew Ackerman: As I made the podcast I’ve become a lot more aware of all of the discussions around sleep, and the importance of having some sort of routine. I think I see [Sleep with Me] in like this spectrum of things that people can choose to make bedtime less intimidating. We’re all at this conference in Nashville and when I stay at a hotel I always bring like a Bluetooth speaker so I can play pink noise or white noise. Because it’s like, you just never know when you’re going to get with a hotel room. Hotels are notorious [for that]. I like have a steady noise.
For me a lot of it is winding down. I like to read fiction before I fall asleep, but, just like taking that time to say, “okay, as much as I’d rather be on my phone or worrying about something, let me try to ease my way into bedtime.” Reading, for me, is like the number one thing as part of like a wind down. If I can’t read I’m like “Oh, I’m not gonna fall asleep.”
Gavin Gaddis: As someone who really enjoys the episodes but is also woefully behind on the show, is there going to be a spiritual successor to Game of Drones once you get through season eight?
Drew Ackerman: I mean, I don’t know. Those are definitely the biggest episodes we’ve ever done and they’ve evolved from the beginning of the podcast. They have they have all of these strange segments and stuff. And so, I think probably- if another Game of Thrones comes out or some other show with that many characters, depth and design where, especially for the podcast, there’s so many things you can get immersed into. There’s so many things that I can immerse the audience in to whether it’s like the feel of leather or the look of the mountains or what would it be like to have a dragon as a pet, there’s so many directions it can go. I mean, I hope so because I really enjoy making those and like developing such a strong, strange deep relationship with a TV show. I’ve been thinking about it too, as Game of Thrones is ending I’ve been hearing other people’s reaction to it. It’s like, I can’t gauge other people’s writing so I’ve watched episode of Game of Thrones five or six times. So it’s like I have this skewed reality of it too.
Gavin Gaddis: On that note: if you were to get a blank check later today to make any kind of show, whatever you want, what podcast would you jump at?
Drew Ackerman: Definitely the first thing I’d do is Sleep with Me in other languages with native speakers. So it’d be like paying a translator a host, maybe then going further and commissioning stories from [each region] we are doing that. Beyond that, I would probably be trying to make Sleep with Me like wider. I would like the show to be more open with more voices and more stories. Another version of Sleep with Me we could do with rotating hosts and rotating stories. If I had a blank check in podcasts I would be like “How many people could we get paid? How many different people could we pay? We can get writers, we can pay editors!” So yeah, it’d be the show in other languages or just Sleep with Me on a wider scale.
Gavin Gaddis: There’s been a lot of writing about combating burnout, especially in freelancer culture lately, but that’s also been coming up in podcasting. You release a podcast three times a week. How do you stave off burnout?
Drew Ackerman: It’s interesting you bring it up now, I think a lot of avoiding burnout is developing a healthy relationship with yourself in, in like that progress we were talking about earlier. It was, I gues last week, all of a sudden I felt extremely exhausted. I didn’t know if I was coming down with something, if I was burned out, or if I was depressed and I was like, “Holy cow. I’m usually not tired except when I’m supposed to be asleep and I’m tired during the day.’ I guess I’m growing a little ‘cause I took a lot of time last week that I would have normally been stressed or felt ashamed about sleeping. I was like, “ I’m going to take a nap. And when I wake up I wake up.” Sometimes that can be a luxury. I did have to make sure I get all my work done and stuff, but I think listening to your body, listening to your feelings and then caring for yourself just like you would a friend. Where you’d say “Wow, that’s weird that you’re tired and have had four coffees. Why’re you tired? Maybe you should lie down.” Sometimes it’s easier to approach as if you were doing it to a friend than yourself. But yeah, I mean, it’s tough though, like in any kind of independent creation.
The benefit of being an independent creator is that you’re an independent creator and you can make your own schedule, but that also can make it difficult to have good boundaries. I mean, I think for people that are very good at [managing burnout], they have very good boundaries and set good limits. I’m trying to get there.
Gavin Gaddis: The Sleep with Me Patreon has developed a sizeable community, how has that affected your engagement with the fandom now that you have this direct link?
Drew Ackerman: My pitch lately on Patreon has been like, “Okay, here’s a crazy idea, pay for free podcast. Like that’s just insane. Like who would pay for a free podcast?” For me the growth of the Patreon has made me feel more and more how precious the connection and the respect I have for my audience is. Not even in a monetary way, ‘cus I think there’s plenty of people that can’t simply choose to support the show or that just choose not to. And then there’s a lot of people that are just kind unaware. And it’s like, wow, these people are like listening and engaged in a way that they’re willing to forgo a lunch out or dinner out. It takes me back to “I need to take this relationship very seriously.”
I mean, I think already did- I mean it’s how I pay my bills. So there is that aspect to it, but I think [having a Patreon] has opened my eyes to in a broader way that what Patreon is trying to do and what creators are trying to do is say there is this middle path. You don’t have to be a starving artist and you don’t have to be a multimillionaire artists. There is a path to being a working artist and an easy way to that path is respecting your audience in doing something of value that they value.
Gavin Gaddis: Does it have much of an effect on your day to day production? Does producing Sleep with Me with a Patreon now feel different than when you started using traditional support methods?
Drew Ackerman: I think it’s always like a question for me of “how, how can I have more touch points with the patrons?” So in front of like the patron-release episodes, I have like a little message and I always circle back to like my own fandom. Like, when I’m like spending hours researching, why am I looking at these maps of Westeros? Like is it because of the podcast? No, it’s like I’m just wondering what the weather’s like in that part of the map. So, if I love doing that, what’s the version of Sleep with Me that I could do that for somebody else? What ways can I let the patrons know I see them? A little something to make you smile and let you know I appreciate it.
Gavin Gaddis: If you were to start over tomorrow, just a hard reset where Sleep with Me hasn’t existed and you’re going to start with Patreon from the beginning, how would you approach the show differently?
Drew Ackerman: It would be tough, just because everything’s happened in this organic way. I learned what the audience likes by having made the show for so long. I mean, I would definitely- when I started the Patreon I was very nervous about asking for, monetary compensation. When I first started it I was so afraid I had this plan going into it: we’ll have these two tiers. And I’ll say, “These are the tiers. Support me at whatever tier you’re comfortable at.” And then when I started doing it, I got scared and I only asked for a dollar for months. When I first launched the Patreon I said “I just want you to give me a dollar.” I already had a budget that I had worked out and I knew, like, if I wanted to hire an editor this is how much money I need. I knew I wasn’t being true to what I wanted to do, it was just ‘cus I was scared. It took listeners saying to me “Why are you only asking for a dollar? Like you have these other tiers, you put out this many episodes, put this much work into the show. Like you’re almost disrespecting us as listener.” I mean, it wasn’t that harsh but it was like “Hey, this is something valuable. It’s okay to ask for more.”
I think being more comfortable with asking and understanding the idea of membership. Like, when I first started Patreon was a little bit newer and it was like, oh are we asking for donations? Well, not really a donation. I think I would focus more on the idea of a membership as like, not a fan club but more like this is a deeper version of Sleep with Me. I guess the long meandering answer is just the podcast but have more in-depth extremely experimental episodes. Try and attract people that way, and I would ask for what I actually needed or felt it was worth.
Gavin Gaddis: That’s interesting, heard from both people with pre-existing fanbases and podcasters starting fresh this constant back-and-forth of “how many tiers should I have? Where do I start? Hey, what’s your highest tier?” How long did it take you to settle on the numbers you currently have on the Sleep with Me Patreon?
Drew Ackerman: I started out with $1, $5, $10, and $20 tiers and recently I’ve cut back just five, ten and 20 mostly. I still get $1 and $2 pledges, but that level serves as a kind of a tip jar, and with my other tiers it’s very clear [what patrons get]. $5 you get ad free episodes, at $10 you’ve get like six days of content, and then that $20 it’s kind of like, “Oh let me overgive.” [As for higher tiers than $20] I’ve like wondered but it’s like a time management thing. I don’t know if I have the time to service any higher tiers. I think that’s the cool thing about Patreon. It’s a fluid thing and you can test something out. And my patrons will tell me like, “You can make a mistake.” Like, I said “Hey, I tried this $1 tier and now I’m cutting back. Like you can still donate a dollar. It’s very easy. But I’m just going to go with these tiers from now on.” And the audience will like, let you know what they think or catch you if you fall.
Gavin Gaddis: We’ve touched on this while talking about the blank check, but where do you see Sleep with Me going as the show grows?
Drew Ackerman: Right now I would like to hire a of like a staff, a producer or something. We just added human transcripts like to make the show more accessible. That’s like a recent like expenditure that I’m really happy about. I’d like to give raises to other people that work on the show. I would like to sustain the show as long as possible. The nice thing about Patreon is I know what the budget is. I know that more than likely there’s not gonna be a drastic change in that budget, so I can plan out like longer than a few months, unlike in the past when I was managing a full time job and trying to plan a couple of months out.
Now we could keep making Sleep with Me well into the future. Like because of our monthly budgets it’s like, “Oh, what does that mean as a creative proposition.” Is there a point where I don’t have to wait for that blank check? And then I can start looking at costs of translating Sleep with Me [like we did] with the transcripts. Like “Now what would the cost be to translate the podcast? Oh, and six months from now we might be able to hire voice talent.” So slow, slow, steady growth.
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You can find anything and everything to do with Sleep with Me at SleepWithMePodcast.com
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